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Sasha Graham on Jim Harold's Paranormal Podcast!

Updated: Jul 9, 2023

Aired May 30th, 2023

In this conversation, Sasha & Jim talk about:

~ How tarot works.

~ Why no two tarot readings are alike.

~ Working with an illustrator to bring your tarot vision to life.

~ Why everyone should embrace the Devil card.

~ Why the future is pliable.


TRANSCRIPT

JIM HAROLD: It’s the return of the Tarot Diva on this week’s edition of the Paranormal Podcast.

This is the Paranormal Podcast with Jim Harold.

JIM HAROLD: Welcome to the Paranormal Podcast. I am Jim Harold. So glad to be with you once again. Tarot. Such a fascinating topic. The mystique of the deck. And someone who is one of my favorite experts on the tarot is with us today. She’s been on the show multiple times before. I’m talking about Sasha Graham. She has a brand new deck out. It’s called Tarot of the Witch’s Garden, and she’s going to tell us all about it.

She’s the bestselling author of more than 10 books and tarot kits, including The Magic of Tarot and Dark Wood Tarot, and you can find everything she does at sashagraham.com. She’s also an actress who’s been in many movies. I think she has some new movies coming up, and we can talk about those a little bit as well. But today the main topic is going to be that of tarot. Sasha, welcome back. We really enjoy having you on the show. You always have so much insight. Thanks for joining us.

SASHA GRAHAM: Thank you for having me. It’s great to see you again.

JIM HAROLD: Good to see you. So tell us a little bit about Tarot of the Witch’s Garden. What was the inspiration for this deck?

SASHA GRAHAM: Historically, all of the decks that I’ve created have been spooky and dark because I come from a horror/supernatural aesthetic. My first deck was Tarot of the Haunted House, which was set in a gothic mansion of eternal night. Then I created the Dark Wood Tarot, which was a fairytale dark forest. I thought it was probably time to do something on the lighter side, and I’m an avid gardener, and I find gardens incredibly magical, so I thought, what better theme for a tarot deck than a witch’s garden?

JIM HAROLD: And it ties in very well because nature has a tremendous amount of spirituality about it. It just seems like a natural fit.

SASHA GRAHAM: It’s a perfect fit. In fact, one of the biggest things I think people forget is that nature is not separate from us. We’re part of nature. That’s where we spring from. So if you’re a magical practitioner, if you’re someone who’s interested in active manifestations, there’s nothing more available and right in front of us all the time than nature, the elements. Especially in a garden.

JIM HAROLD: Do you find the tarot decks read differently? What I mean is if you have the standard deck and – I’m blanking on the name of it.

SASHA GRAHAM: The Rider–Waite.

JIM HAROLD: Yes, exactly. I knew part of that, but I’m like “I know this.” Or a deck like this, that has a certain spirit – do they accentuate certain things? Do they read differently? Or is it just the same across the board, do you find?

SASHA GRAHAM: First, it’s never the same. In fact, any tarot reading when you sit down is never, ever the same because you’re always in a different space as the reader. Or even if you come to someone for a reading, you’re always in a different place. But in terms of a technical reading of the cards, different decks all have different personalities. As a reader, there’s different things that you’re going to pick up. Although the innate structure of tarot always stays the same, just like astrology – when you’re looking at say the sign of Scorpio, you’ll have the traditional things that are embedded in what makes a Scorpio a Scorpio; the same thing is true for each and every tarot card.

But then whatever world you place that card in is going to enhance the reading. It’s going to give you, as the reader, different things to pick up on, different vibes, different aesthetics, different moods. You can reach for a dark deck if you want to go deep, or you could reach for something lighter and flowery, like a garden deck, like this deck, if you wanted to go into that mood. So yeah, they always read differently, although they’re grounded in the same structure.

JIM HAROLD: I’m looking at some of the imagery here of the deck and it’s absolutely gorgeous. We’ll be using a few video clips here and there, but this is an audio podcast, so can you describe the imagery and talk about the illustrator you worked with? Because this is just gorgeous. These are beautiful images.

SASHA GRAHAM: She’s a watercolor artist. This was the first deck that wasn’t created on a computer. Every single card. And it’s a very soft, cottage core yet vibrant watercolor deck. And Llewellyn, the publisher, put it on a beautiful linen finish, so the cards are truly vibrant and colorful, and the texture of it is quite incredible. It’s a very inviting deck. Whereas my other two decks or horror decks tend to be much more black-and-white or dark and bleak, this deck is literally like if you were to walk into your garden at the height of August with all of the colors and the sensations and that beauty buzzing around you. It’s pretty much in every single card in Tarot of the Witch’s Garden.

JIM HAROLD: Yeah, I’m looking at some of these – the Two of Pentacles, Star, the Night of Cups – they’re just gorgeous and well, well done. Just beautiful. The Hermit. So how does that work? What is the collaborative process like when you’re working with an artist? I mean, I’m sure that you as the creator of the tarot have a vision. How does that communication come and how do you work with someone to put your vision and combine it with their vision to come up with something like this beautiful tarot deck?

SASHA GRAHAM: It’s really exciting. It’s a really exciting process because the artist inevitably makes what I envisioned that much better. Imagine you’re a children’s book writer and you’ve written out the entire children’s book, and then you bring in the illustrator to illustrate your visions. When I sit down to create a tarot deck, I create the entire world. I write every card as if it’s a scene from a movie. All of that goes through the publisher, so the publisher and I decide everything ahead of time before we find the artist who’s going to bring that to life for us.

Then once we get the artist and they start – we always being with sketches. The first thing that comes back to me after the illustrator has read how a card is going to come to life, they’ll send a black-and-white sketch. From there, we adjust and we tinker. Usually it only takes – if it takes any adjustment at all, maybe it gets sent back once or twice, and then usually all systems are go and then we receive the colorized final version, which is always really exciting.

JIM HAROLD: You also have a companion book that goes with this, right?

SASHA GRAHAM: Yes, I do. Llewellyn is known for their nice, big, thick companion books. Usually they have full color, one page of each card. They’re really lush books that stand on their own. They’re sold with the decks, but they certainly in their own right could be put on your bookshelf. It’s a wonderful resource to really dive in. My tarots are very immersive experiences. I create very particular worlds, and I want the reader to feel as if they’re reading a book that then becomes evergreen because as they’re using the cards, they’re continually interfacing with that world. They’re continually interacting with that world. So yeah, it’s a beautiful combination of books and cards.

JIM HAROLD: In terms of tarot cards in general, do you find that different people resonate differently with different decks?

SASHA GRAHAM: Oh, 100%. It’s a funny thing. There’s some tarotists who are like rabid book collectors. They just can’t stop buying, and as soon as a new deck comes to market, they’ll want to buy it. They have like 300 decks in their collection. Then there are other people who are very specifically into a certain vibe. Maybe they love fairy decks the most, or cottage core garden decks, and that’s really what they collect.

Then there’s some people – I would say that would be myself included – that, because I exist in the world of tarot and tarot practitioners, I’m constantly being introduced to new decks, so it’s kind of like meeting new friends, because when you find a tarot deck that really speaks to you – and they do. Different decks have different voices, and they show up at different points in your life and are very clear. For instance, I have a deck that’s great with love topics. It just really speaks to me. That’s the Prisma Visions Tarot. It’s not even one that I created. That’s really good for that topic.

So you sort of get to know them like friends. So when you want their particular – or sometimes you’ll have a deck that always tells you the truth. It’ll slap you upside the head, which is really good as a reader. So you pull for them like you would pull, like, “I want to see this friend on a Tuesday night and hear what they have to say because their advice is always really good.”

JIM HAROLD: This is more of a 101 question, but I’m always fascinated by this – and I’m sure I’ve asked you this question before, but I’m going to ask it again.

SASHA GRAHAM: Please do.

JIM HAROLD: How does it work? Is it solely the deck? Is it the reader? Is it the combination of the reader and the readee? How do you think tarot cards actually work and bring forth pertinent information?

SASHA GRAHAM: The first thing I’ll say is that every single one of us interfaces with the world in a different way. The way that tarot works for me might not be the way it would work for you or for the witch next door or for my friend over there, first of all. What happens to a person as they’re reading the cards is always going to be different, which is why it’s kind of ironic, because I write tarot books, but one of the first things I say to people is throw your books out the window. What do you see? What do you feel? What’s happening inside of you as you’re reading the cards?

The second thing I will say, and probably the most helpful thing about tarot and how tarot works, is that it’s visual. Tarot speaks symbolically and visually. What does that mean? It transcends language. When you’re looking at an image, it moves straight into the heart of you. Tarot has specific imagery built into it that people can study that they then can read, like its own language. So it’s almost like learning Braille or learning something different. It becomes a language that you learn to speak.

But it’s this interesting open-ended language, because like I said before, every time you sit down with the cards you’re in a different place. So for anybody who reads tarot, it’s like a painter painting. It’s like a poet writing poetry. You sit down in this sacred space, you get yourself ready, and then you see what’s there. You ask a question and you see what’s there, and then you move deeper into whatever that is. You go into whatever direction you want to go into. But essentially it’s visual and it’s creative, so a person with an open mind and an open heart is going to get a great answer.

JIM HAROLD: Another question I have is some people may say, “Ooh, I don’t know if I should do tarot because I don’t really know what I’m doing. I’m just starting out and it might somehow end up badly because I may give somebody a bad reading, or I don’t really know what I’m doing.” They’re almost afraid to start. It’s almost like someone who you’re trying to teach – maybe an elderly person, you’re trying to teach them how to use a phone or a computer. They might say, “I don’t want to touch it. I’m going to break it.” Do you find that people have that with tarot starting out? There’s like this, “Ooh, scary, scary.”

SASHA GRAHAM: Yeah, I think there’s tons of fear for people just starting out, for a multitude of reasons. Number one, tarot is historically a scary, off-limits thing. It’s been demonized through the years. Divination and fortunetelling and witches and all of that. And especially in different parts of the country. I’m in the Northeast, so I take it for granted; everybody seems to have a tarot deck on their desk. It’s not the same in other parts of the country. People come to tarot with preconceived fear, certainly.

And then there’s always, even with people who study tarot for a long time, this fear of getting it wrong. There’s this fear of getting the cards wrong, because it does spring from this rich esoteric tradition that goes back many, many centuries. The thing I think everybody needs to remember is that yes, there’s all of this stuff to study and learn and know, and you’ll never get to the end of that because it’s also very mystical, but that’s just adding. You don’t need that. You don’t need that to sit down and look at a single image and glean a piece of information or a message from that.

And then as far as reading for other people, the thing everybody has to remember is that the power of suggestion is strong. If your heart’s in the right place and you’re paying attention to what you’re saying, understanding that somebody on the receiving end is really listening with their whole heart, usually, when they’re getting a tarot reading, you don’t need to be worried. And it’s fun. You can play with the cards. There’s nothing dangerous about it.

Thank you for asking that question, because I think that fear is the quickest way to shut a reading down. And certainly to shut down your own intuition.


JIM HAROLD: We’re back on the Paranormal Podcast. Our guest is Sasha Graham, and her new tarot deck is Tarot of the Witch’s Garden. We’re so glad to speak with her once again. Now, I’m curious about this. I think most people think when you go for a tarot reading that the person doing the reading has all the power, and it all lies on them. But if I understand correctly, talking with yourself and other tarot readers, the reading is actually kind of a co-creation between the reader and the read. Can you talk about that?

SASHA GRAHAM: Absolutely. I think what you’re talking about, Jim, is a best case scenario. I think any of us would want to go in to any sort of a psychic or intuitive reading feeling like it is a collaborative, co-creative process.

The first way that anybody can make that happen for themselves is to really vet the person that you’re going in for a psychic or tarot reading with. In other words, ask them questions. Get references. Find out what their personality is like. Nine times out of ten, you’re going to get most of the reader’s personality, more than any information. So you’re going to want to be sitting with someone that you feel safe with. You’re going to want to know what they will and won’t talk about. You can go ahead and ask them if they’re reading psychically, if they channel people who’ve passed over from the other side. If you go into a psychic or intuitive or tarot reading knowing what kind of information you would like, articulate that to the person.

I’m going to take this into a saucy place, but I don’t know why – it just jumped into my mind – but if you were going to, say, interview a sex worker, you’re going to say, “This is what I want and this is what I don’t like,” and they would do the same thing. Not to equate tarot reading with sex, but it’s kind of that same thing where clarity and being clear about what you want, especially as we’re talking about the invisible world. We’re talking about supernatural stuff. We’re also talking about your life. You’re going to want to walk out of that room as empowered, or with the information that you’re looking for. So don’t have any hesitation in requesting that.

And if the person that’s been recommended to you or you’ve heard about, if they’re not willing to do that, then find someone else. There’s no lack of wonderful psychics, intuitives, and tarot card readers out there. But the most important thing you can do is take care of yourself so that when you’re with that person, it feels safe and open and creative, and you walk out feeling like you’ve gotten what you came for.

JIM HAROLD: What’s your favorite card and why?

SASHA GRAHAM: I love the Devil card.

JIM HAROLD: And why is that, I have to ask?

SASHA GRAHAM: I love the Devil card because the Devil card is the one card of the deck which always shows me what my issue is, what’s holding me back, what’s bothering me. I’m a big proponent of shadow work. I’m a big proponent of trying to live each day a little bit – not better than my last day, but more expansively. I don’t want to keep repeating the same old mistakes. The Devil card always shows you where your hangups are, where your tough stuff is. So I love that card for really reflecting where I am repressing parts of myself or being really hard on myself. At the end of every day, I want to be a little bit freer and a little bit more of who I am. So the Devil card has a lot to teach us. It really is the key to the entire deck, I think.

JIM HAROLD: Actually, that brings about a question, because I think people take the cards quite literally, Death or whatever it might be, or the Devil card or whatever – that it means this specific thing, and they take it very literally. Can you talk about that? Do the cards literally mean the image you see in front of you, or do they mean much more?

SASHA GRAHAM: One should never take tarot literally. It’s the same thing as taking sacred texts or poetry literally. We wouldn’t take a poem being a literal thing. Poetry works because of the spaces in between the words. It’s the same thing for tarot, and it’s why every single card of the deck is bottomless in what it means.

It’s just logical also, Jim. Like, if I took the Death card on face value, I would’ve been dead a million times over. Or the people in my life would be dead a million times over. Because I use tarot every day and so do millions of other people. It’s never literal. It’s never literal, but it’s a framework for you to understand what you’re looking at, you see. And within that framework, it’s like stepping into a different facet of yourself.

Think about all of the different dinners that you’ve had in the last say three years. It’s the framework of your evening mealtime, but what was on your plate, what was consumed, what was enjoyed, what went on was different every time. It’s the same with every tarot card, which is why tarot is evergreen. Which is why, decades after working with the cards, I still hold my breath and say, “What’s that next card going to be?” before I flip it. And I know I’m not alone in that. That’s why tarot continues to be powerful and evocative. It’s different every time. If you were to take the cards literally, that wouldn’t be the case. It would be boring, open/closed, no need.

JIM HAROLD: What is the biggest misconception about tarot, in your mind, that you hear over and over and over again?

SASHA GRAHAM: I think people think the tarot itself is bad or dangerous. Tarot really has to do with the person who’s using them. I think that’s the biggest misconception. Certainly the fear that someone might hear something they don’t want to hear, that’s very valid and understandable. But there’s nothing dangerous about the cards. And in truth, the world is sending us messages all the time. It’s just up to each of us if we want to be receiving those messages. We can look for answers and messages all around us. Tarot is just the perfect, concise, portable, beautiful, artistic yet grounded and beautiful esoteric theory device that we can use, and it’s anything but dangerous.

JIM HAROLD: Do you find that people are concerned that whatever comes out in the cards is set fate, that there’s no changing things? I ask a similar question to astrologers. If somebody gets a reading about something that might not be the most positive thing, is that a fait accompli? Or is that something that you can work to change or tweak?

SASHA GRAHAM: That depends on the person giving the reading and what they think. If you were going to sit down with me, tarot is always a suggestion. It’s always open-ended. It will show you the energy of a situation that you’re in, and in that way the cards don’t lie because they’ll keep throwing the truth up at you.

But in terms of being predictive, first of all, I don’t think that predictive reading is helpful in any way because if somebody sat down with me, “When am I going to fall I love?” and I flip a card and I say, “Oh, you know what, tarot says it’s really not in the cards for you at all” – is that person going to stop looking for love? It’s illogical. And at its best, any reader, intuitive, or psychic can only relay information that’s already happened to you. When someone walks away from an extraordinary reading and they’re like, “Oh, she saw everything about my life,” it was still something that has happened in the past or very recent past.

So in terms of tarot reading, things that are set in stone, it depends on the person. I personally have never had an extraordinary, prophetic reading. Think about it, Jim. Think about all of the readers and psychics and intuitives that I know. In terms of predictive that “this is what’s going to happen to you,” I think it’s as good as a weather forecast. And we know they’re not always on the money either.

JIM HAROLD: So its’ more about giving you insights to yourself and your life rather than saying “XYZ is going to happen to you a month from now.”

SASHA GRAHAM: Absolutely, and especially if you read the cards for yourself. It’s so helpful because it’s like taking all the problems inside of your head and spreading them out on the table in front of you. You get a bird’s eye view, and then suddenly options appear. Tarot is like a fairytale in that it gives you an opportunity to say, “Okay, if I try this, what’s the likelihood of what’ll happen?” You can try out different scenarios before you actually do them in your real life. It’s almost like clay in that way.

But then it’s also retroactive and internal. Tarot becomes also, if you want it to be, a very contemplative thing. You can pull cards on what to meditate on or what to look at. You can pull cards also as energy that you want to work with. Jim, if you had a hot date coming up tonight and you wanted to really make sure you were firing on all cylinders, you could purposely pull out the King of Wands, the King of Fire, kind of incorporate that energy into your body, and then be a really charismatic, sexy, and sparkling knight as you go out.

JIM HAROLD: I thought I was that way all the time, but I guess not. But as we’re recording this, this is my wedding anniversary, so I’m going to have to do that. [laughs]

SASHA GRAHAM: So you’re already in a King of Wands space. The cards are like medicine. You can take them like medicine.

JIM HAROLD: Very cool indeed.

SASHA GRAHAM: They’re good for so many things.

JIM HAROLD: I want to get back to something you mentioned there: reading for yourself. I think, again, most people think of the reader and the read relationship, but it sounds like the cards can be just as useful, maybe more useful, in just reading yourself.

SASHA GRAHAM: They’re great for reading yourself. It’s a great thing to do first thing in the morning to just say, “What can I pay attention to today and have the best day possible?” In order to read cards for yourself, you have to come up with great questions and a great question tricks your brain into finding really good solutions.

But for people who historically are highly psychic or highly intuitive, oftentimes the cards for them become a really nice device in order for them to hone the information that’s coming to them. I have a friend of mine, Scott – his psychic ability was so off the wall that he didn’t know where to put it, and it was like the cards became this grounding thing, kind of like a partner in his psychic ability. So again, it depends on the person. It depends on what sort of creature you are. If you’re a writer, you might use tarot to help you write your stories.

It’s so good in so many different ways. If you’re a masseuse or maybe a yoga teacher, you might pull a card for a client or pull a card for the class. It’s constantly giving suggestions. But because it’s visual, people can look at it and be like, “Oh, all right, cool.”

JIM HAROLD: You’ve been doing this for quite a while, working with tarot. Do you find that it still surprises you? Do you find it still brings you new information? Is it something that continues to evolve, or is it like “been there, done that, got the t-shirt”?

SASHA GRAHAM: It continues to evolve, and I wouldn’t still be doing this if I didn’t find it utterly captivating. And that’s the truth.

One of the fun things that I love doing is figuring out ways – when you get stuck in a rut – because tarot for the average person who has maybe one or two decks is a relationship. As you know, you just said you’re celebrating an anniversary; sometimes you feel so connected to your partner. It’s amazing. The two of you are unstoppable. And then there’s other times where you kind of fall away. Tarot ultimately is a relationship, and it’s why the cards are so precious to the people who use them and read them.

I’m actually writing an article right now about why tarot is the perfect witch’s companion. They are our companions, and it is always evergreen. And like I said before, you don’t want to be the same person day in and day out, so when you’re constantly meeting the cards fresh, you’re constantly getting new information and hopefully inspiration. And the great thing about the supernatural and tarot and magic and all of that is that the more you explore it, the more vibrant and the more depth it holds. You wind up, when you start going down this tiny Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole and you discover the world that you move into, it’s never-ending.

JIM HAROLD: One other question before we let you go, and of course we’ll reiterate where people can get the deck, because they can get it now. But I read an online profile of you in preparation for this discussion today because even though we’ve talked multiple times, you can always learn new things, and I knew you were an actress; I didn’t realize how deep you are into the horror scene and being an actress in horror.

It’s interesting to me because I find this as well – and this is kind of not, but it is connected to our talk today – how horror kind of is like a nice counterpoint to things like metaphysics and spirituality. For example, with me, I do this show called the Paranormal Podcast. For whatever reason, these days, probably paranormal TV shows, they think that just means ghosts, where to me, I’m old school. It means ghosts, it means UFOs, it means spirituality, it means metaphysics, it means tarot. It seems like people that are interested in those things are also big fans of horror. Can you talk about the interplay, the yin and yang of those two things, and even though on one side it might seem like they’re incompatible, they are compatible, for you at least?

SASHA GRAHAM: Yeah, they’re brilliantly compatible. There’s a couple different reasons why. First of all, I think that horror – horror films, horror novels, anything good and spooky, anything that terrifies you in a really fun, entertaining way – is so super similar and akin to sacred experience because it opens you up. If somebody is walking into a church, a temple, into a highly spiritual place, the first thing that they see is theoretically beautiful architecture, candles, music, incense, costume. The reason that spirituality and organized religion tends to be quite theatrical is because they’re trying to get the practitioners to open up so that they receive something – a teaching, a learning, something new. That’s why there’s all of these wonderful sensual things.

Same exact thing happens to us when we’re watching a slasher. Think about it. You walk in to watch a Friday the Thirteenth movie. You immediately are watching that film in a different state than if you were watching a romcom, a historical. You’re on the edge of your seat. Every single piece of you is on high alert. That’s also why it’s great for dating and romance; it’s an aphrodisiac. You’re literally waiting for the jump scare. You’re waiting for that thing to come out of the dark and to surprise you. Really great horror and really great paranormal spooky writing and films will show you something you’ve never seen before.

It also teaches us – especially as ’80s kids. ’80s horror taught us what our parents were not teaching us, which was how to take care of ourselves and what we needed to look out for, because we were all free range kids. But Stephen King had our back. He was telling us, “This is what the boogeyman next door looks like, and this is how hopefully you can protect yourself from that person.”

When it comes to a life and death situation, you’re really paying attention. You really want that information. The same thing happens in a tarot reading. When people come to a tarot reader, if they’re just going for a one-off reading, it’s because something life and death is going on. They need an answer, and they’re listening to that reader the same way that you would watch a Child’s Play Chucky movie.

The other interesting thing about horror and tarot and all of that kind of sacred space is that it’s the place in which we see things that we haven’t seen before, and those things are very transformative and ultimately healing. There’s also something about the darkness that allows everyone to truly be themselves, that allows what is coming through the darkness, what’s coming through from the other side that wants to be seen. It gives us space for that. So there’s just a receptivity, whether it’s for entertainment or personal empowerment or direction. All the same delicious dark space.

That is also, I find, like the cards, always a fun space to be in. You’re always paying attention. You can’t look away. You stop looking at your phone. You’re alive. You’re really alive, and even more than just being in a space of vibrancy, you’re also right on that edge. You’re on that edge of the unknown, which truthfully is probably where we all are anyway.

JIM HAROLD: But we don’t know it. [laughs]

SASHA GRAHAM: Yeah. It’s fun to walk up and peer over the edge.

JIM HAROLD: Very interesting indeed. Always a fun discussion about the topic of tarot, and in this case, horror movies. Where can people go to find Tarot of the Witch’s Garden, and also, where can people find these movies?

SASHA GRAHAM: The Tarot of the Witch’s Garden is available at any bookstore, brick-and-mortar store, your favorite metaphysical shop, Barnes and Noble you can order them online, Amazon, Thriftbooks, or right through my publisher, Llewellyn. For my movies, you can find those – gosh, where can you find the movies? Those are all released by – you can look them up online and probably order any of my movies online. Although if you happen to be in New York City, Forbidden Planet on Broadway between 13th and 12th Street has a good selection of my movies on DVD. A lot of my films are available on Tubi or Amazon. You can stream them if you’re into streaming flicks.

JIM HAROLD: I love the description of the one – I don’t know if it’s come out yet. You play a female Bob Barker type gameshow host with – well, a little harder edge, so to speak. [laughs]

SASHA GRAHAM: Yeah. It’s a revenge horror movie called Trivial, and it should be out I think at the end of this summer. Yeah, I play a female gameshow host with an axe to grind. It is bloody good. Bloody, bloody good.

JIM HAROLD: There you go. Be sure to check that out, Tarot of the Witch’s Garden and that movie and Sasha’s other movies. And of course, she has her website at sashagraham.com. Sasha, thank you for joining us. I know in October we’re going to be doing a livestream to coordinate with another project you have coming out, so looking forward to that, and thanks for being on the show again.

SASHA GRAHAM: Thank you so much, Jim.

JIM HAROLD: As always, talking with Sasha is a lot of fun. So glad she could join us, and I hope you check out her new tarot deck and everything that she does. She’s going to be back in the fall, and we’ll be talking about her new project coming up then.

And thank you for tuning in to the show. A couple of things. First of all, I’d like to give you a little token of my appreciation. If you’ve been listening all this time, you are a devoted listener, and I appreciate it, so go over to jimharold.com and click on the orange button at the top of the page to get your free Campfire eBook. We put it together; it’s a selection of some of my favorite stories from our Campfire series of books, and it’s absolutely free. So get it over there at jimharold.com.

Also, please rate and review and share with a friend, too. It means so much. When you give us a good rating, it kind of works like social proof. People say, “Ah, I’ll check out that podcast.” So we really appreciate it.

Thanks so much. We’ll talk to you next time. Have a great week, and stay spooky. Bye-bye, everybody!


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